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MRM and MIGTOW
#1
EDIT: Jemini speaking.

Decided to split the thread. Here is the post that this first one was in response to, I decided to leave it in the old thread since it was a legitimate part of the conversation up until that point.

(12-10-2014, 01:21 AM)Loliaddict Wrote:  Great video on "rape" in general.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NEL-SiPZYi8

Ok, Jemini out.



An Aaron Clarey video. I didn't think the MGTOW movement had spread to this corner of the internet. Then again, given this site's nature, it was but a matter of time. Interesting. I'll have to log this for further study. Expect a relevant inquiry in the future.
Question everything . . .
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#2
(12-10-2014, 01:49 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  An Aaron Clarey video. I didn't think the MGTOW movement had spread to this corner of the internet. Then again, given this site's nature, it was but a matter of time. Interesting. I'll have to log this for further study. Expect a relevant inquiry in the future.

How exactly is Aaron Clarey a MGTOW if he has a girlfriend?
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#3
(12-10-2014, 02:04 AM)Loliaddict Wrote:  How exactly is Aaron Clarey a MGTOW if he has a girlfriend?
The same way any man can be MGTOW as long as he isn't married, I imagine.
Question everything . . .
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#4
(12-10-2014, 03:36 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-10-2014, 02:04 AM)Loliaddict Wrote:  How exactly is Aaron Clarey a MGTOW if he has a girlfriend?
The same way any man can be MGTOW as long as he isn't married, I imagine.

With MIGTOW, it only counts if he was married before he subscribed to the MIGTOW ideology. MIGTOW, by definition, means to advocate for and personally practice an aversion to the very idea of a man being married or being defined by their relationship to a woman. People who ascribe to the MIGTOW lifestyle before they get married will not get married. It is simple as that.
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#5
(12-10-2014, 03:36 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-10-2014, 02:04 AM)Loliaddict Wrote:  How exactly is Aaron Clarey a MGTOW if he has a girlfriend?
The same way any man can be MGTOW as long as he isn't married, I imagine.

The entire point of MGTOW is to avoid real woman in general. A MGTOW having a girlfriend would go against the entire point of being MGTOW.

At this point we're getting of topic so if you want to continue this discussion then make another thread.
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#6
(12-10-2014, 03:42 AM)Loliaddict Wrote:  The entire point of MGTOW is to avoid real woman in general. A MGTOW having a girlfriend would go against the entire point of being MGTOW.
No it wouldn't. That's far too black-and-white to be applied to MGTOW. In fact, there isn't even a consensus on who or what could be a MGTOW. The label seems to be inclusive of married men. I disagree with this, of course. But alas, I have no stake in MGTOW thus I couldn't care less who is allowed to wear the label. It appears to be going belly-up like the MRM anyway.
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#7
(12-10-2014, 09:10 PM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-10-2014, 03:42 AM)Loliaddict Wrote:  The entire point of MGTOW is to avoid real woman in general. A MGTOW having a girlfriend would go against the entire point of being MGTOW.
No it wouldn't. That's far too black-and-white to be applied to MGTOW. In fact, there isn't even a consensus on who or what could be a MGTOW. The label seems to be inclusive of married men. I disagree with this, of course. But alas, I have no stake in MGTOW thus I couldn't care less who is allowed to wear the label. It appears to be going belly-up like the MRM anyway.

Anyone can make a statement about a movement "going belly up," but I think this is the sort of thing that is of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" category considering the "a voice for men" website has been climbing on the Alexia ranks for 5 years running now.
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#8
(12-11-2014, 12:53 AM)jemini Wrote:  Anyone can make a statement about a movement "going belly up," but I think this is the sort of thing that is of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" category considering the "a voice for men" website has been climbing on the Alexia ranks for 5 years running now.
Saying the MRM is going belly up is not an extraordinary claim. The existence of an intelligent creator is an extraordinary claim. If you don't know the difference I will be happy to explain further.
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#9
(12-12-2014, 05:02 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-11-2014, 12:53 AM)jemini Wrote:  Anyone can make a statement about a movement "going belly up," but I think this is the sort of thing that is of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" category considering the "a voice for men" website has been climbing on the Alexia ranks for 5 years running now.
Saying the MRM is going belly up is not an extraordinary claim. The existence of an intelligent creator is an extraordinary claim. If you don't know the difference I will be happy to explain further.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it is an extraordinary claim, but it is still a claim that requires evidence.
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#10
(12-10-2014, 05:53 PM)Slyfoxxl Wrote:  I don't think this was a choice so much as a filler lol.

(12-12-2014, 02:05 PM)Loliaddict Wrote:  
(12-12-2014, 05:02 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-11-2014, 12:53 AM)jemini Wrote:  Anyone can make a statement about a movement "going belly up," but I think this is the sort of thing that is of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" category considering the "a voice for men" website has been climbing on the Alexia ranks for 5 years running now.
Saying the MRM is going belly up is not an extraordinary claim. The existence of an intelligent creator is an extraordinary claim. If you don't know the difference I will be happy to explain further.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it is an extraordinary claim, but it is still a claim that requires evidence.

Indeed. As a matter of fact, the MRM is starting to bridge out from the internet into real world activism. Look up KSU Men sometime. It is the second real-world men's activist orginization, it is a student group representing men's rights on the Kenesaw State University campus in Georgia. The first is MRM Edmenton witch puts up posters promoting men's rights in Edmenton. KSU Men is a far more legitimate movement though participating in several charities and changing the dialogue around the KSU campus.

KSU Men just held their first confrence about a month ago, and the first national men's confrence was in July of this year. All the evidence says that the MRM is just gaining momentum and is only going to get bigger.
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#11
In my experience, the MRM (or MRHM -- whichever name it wants to use now) isn't necessarily acting in the best interest of men. If you're familiar with the term "tradcon", you'd see what I mean. I find that MGTOW is a much bolder statement, what with opting out of society as a whole. The MRM is "gaining momentum", not gaining momentum. Two completely different things. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. I don't care what others do with their time. I think, however, that men need to know that when given a choice between MGTOW and the MRM, the former acts moreso in their best interests. I would go on with why the MRM and tradcons as a whole aren't really helping men as much as they say they are, but I like to keep my posts short and sweet unless a long post is warranted. Of course, any objective look into the MRM and its flagship members like Paul Elam will explain what I mean beautifully.
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#12
(12-12-2014, 08:42 PM)jemini Wrote:  
(12-10-2014, 05:53 PM)Slyfoxxl Wrote:  I don't think this was a choice so much as a filler lol.

(12-12-2014, 02:05 PM)Loliaddict Wrote:  
(12-12-2014, 05:02 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-11-2014, 12:53 AM)jemini Wrote:  Anyone can make a statement about a movement "going belly up," but I think this is the sort of thing that is of the "extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence" category considering the "a voice for men" website has been climbing on the Alexia ranks for 5 years running now.
Saying the MRM is going belly up is not an extraordinary claim. The existence of an intelligent creator is an extraordinary claim. If you don't know the difference I will be happy to explain further.

I wouldn't go as far as to say it is an extraordinary claim, but it is still a claim that requires evidence.

Indeed. As a matter of fact, the MRM is starting to bridge out from the internet into real world activism. Look up KSU Men sometime. It is the second real-world men's activist orginization, it is a student group representing men's rights on the Kenesaw State University campus in Georgia. The first is MRM Edmenton witch puts up posters promoting men's rights in Edmenton. KSU Men is a far more legitimate movement though participating in several charities and changing the dialogue around the KSU campus.

KSU Men just held their first confrence about a month ago, and the first national men's confrence was in July of this year. All the evidence says that the MRM is just gaining momentum and is only going to get bigger.

good. maybe feminism will have some opposition from the opposite end of the spectrum. though my inner cynic says that they're not gonna be taken seriously and they'll just fade away into obscurity. of course i have no evidence for this but its just a feeling i have.
"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."- Mahatma Gandhi
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#13
(12-12-2014, 08:58 PM)Indefatigable Wrote:  In my experience, the MRM (or MRHM -- whichever name it wants to use now) isn't necessarily acting in the best interest of men. If you're familiar with the term "tradcon", you'd see what I mean. I find that MGTOW is a much bolder statement, what with opting out of society as a whole. The MRM is "gaining momentum", not gaining momentum. Two completely different things. At the end of the day it doesn't matter. I don't care what others do with their time. I think, however, that men need to know that when given a choice between MGTOW and the MRM, the former acts moreso in their best interests. I would go on with why the MRM and tradcons as a whole aren't really helping men as much as they say they are, but I like to keep my posts short and sweet unless a long post is warranted. Of course, any objective look into the MRM and its flagship members like Paul Elam will explain what I mean beautifully.

Yeah, you really are going to have to explain what you mean by "Not representing the best interests of men" in a lot more detail, because if you will look up the 26 men's issues discussed on the "A voice for men" website and looked into the basis behind these things, it sounds like a pretty spot on mission statement.

If you want to have it read out to you, here is a guy who reads off the list (and provides comentary as to feminism's contributions to these issues according to their claims that "feminism is already working on men's issues") Skip to 4:45 to skip the posters from the KSUM confrence.



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#14
What do you believe, Jemini? Is feminism already working on male issues?
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#15
(12-13-2014, 01:40 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  What do you believe, Jemini? Is feminism already working on male issues?

i know this question pertains to jemini but i'd like to put my hat in the ring on this particular question. the question should be should it be working on male issues. the movement like the name implies mostly consists of women. imagine the other way around. MRM's telling women "we got this. we'll handle your issues for you." they'd probably wouldn't take that well. and for good reason. personally i say both are antiquated considering the relative equality men and women share but saying the other gender should make decisions for them is misguided. still stands even if i felt they where both relevant.

i mean if both where to come together and cooperate then yes, but considering how much they think the other is full of degenerates makes that highly doubtful.

i'd like to note due to my internet limitations i can't watch the video atm. so i might change my post accordingly after i watch it. if it needs changed that is.
"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."- Mahatma Gandhi
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#16
(12-13-2014, 01:40 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  What do you believe, Jemini? Is feminism already working on male issues?

I believe feminism is divided against itself, and one faction is actively working positively toward helping men while the other is working toward hindering men. Unfortunately, the side working toward hindering men is the more powerful at this point in time.

I do believe the loud minority Vs. the silent majority argument is valid, that the people within feminism who are hindering men's rights are a minority of somewhere between 10 and 15%, but to that I respond that the Nazi party within Germany had only 10% approval of the German people.

Feminism will not be an ally in the fight for gender equality until the silent majority stops being silent, and this loud minority that is actively hindering gender equality is suppressed. I do see hope of this happening in the very near future though. Thanks to some of the discussions and increasing activity of Men's Rights groups these days, there are a lot more young people within the feminist movement who are becoming aware of the divided nature of the movement and who are beginning to stand up to the backwards side of the movement. I remain rather harsh on Feminism, but due to the response I have seen within feminism as a result of what the MRM is doing, I have come to view these criticisms of feminism more as khemotherapy than an attack with the intent to kill the movement. The reason moderate feminists are beginning to speak up more and more is because the anti-feminists are making it very uncomfortable for them to keep quiet.

All that being said, I do agree with Touma that being the lead role in persuing men's issues is not the place of a woman's movement, but at the very least feminism could show its support rather than actively hinder the issues. In a perfect world, I would think men's and women's issues alike ought to be handled by a non-gendered egalitarian movement, while gendered factions representing each side acted only to voice to the egalitarian movement what issues are important to them since a gendered movement is far more likely to come up with ideas than a neutral party. The gendered movements would gurantee issues get recognized and the neutral party would be a check against a gender bias.
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#17
(12-13-2014, 04:41 AM)jemini Wrote:  
(12-13-2014, 01:40 AM)Indefatigable Wrote:  What do you believe, Jemini? Is feminism already working on male issues?
I believe feminism is divided against itself, and one faction is actively working positively toward helping men while the other is working toward hindering men. Unfortunately, the side working toward hindering men is the more powerful at this point in time.
I do believe the loud minority Vs. the silent majority argument is valid, that the people within feminism who are hindering men's rights are a minority of somewhere between 10 and 15%, but to that I respond that the Nazi party within Germany had only 10% approval of the German people.
Feminism will not be an ally in the fight for gender equality until the silent majority stops being silent, and this loud minority that is actively hindering gender equality is suppressed. I do see hope of this happening in the very near future though. Thanks to some of the discussions and increasing activity of Men's Rights groups these days, there are a lot more young people within the feminist movement who are becoming aware of the divided nature of the movement and who are beginning to stand up to the backwards side of the movement. I remain rather harsh on Feminism, but due to the response I have seen within feminism as a result of what the MRM is doing, I have come to view these criticisms of feminism more as khemotherapy than an attack with the intent to kill the movement. The reason moderate feminists are beginning to speak up more and more is because the anti-feminists are making it very uncomfortable for them to keep quiet.
i hope what you say is true. the loud minority vs. the silent majority has been one my major criticism against feminism. i actually got into a discussion with a feminist on deviantart and she constantly said that "not all feminists are like that" and denounced the radical feminists of even being feminists. basically turning a blind eye towards their less then pleasant members. didn't even acknowledge that they can do damage to their image simply by claiming to be a feminist. whether or not objectively one can be called a feminist.  

thinking that just by simply saying "not all feminist" will stave off any damage  that the radicals can do. hopefully you're right and mindsets like this will go away. and maybe when they're actively trying to take back some sanity my views and many others views on the feminist movement will dissolve. though i'll never be for feminism due to my own beliefs but it will be nice to hear feminism without having a feeling of rage at the mere mention of the word. though i'm very skeptical. its gotten to the point that i believe the movement is beyond salvageable
yeah, i know i'm preaching to the choir but i want to make my agreement with your assessment vocal.

edit: in a perfect world i agree we would go about this under the flag of egalitarianism instead of gender split terms like MRM and feminism but feminism supporting mrm is something i wouldn't necessarily disagree with. though, to me thats just asking for trouble. in a perfect world there wouldn't be radicals ready and willing to sabotage progress for their own agenda's. i fear that the radicals would somehow infiltrate mrm and hijack it. yeah, i know i sound paranoid.
"Be the change that you wish to see in the world."- Mahatma Gandhi
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#18
(12-13-2014, 04:41 AM)jemini Wrote:  I believe feminism is divided against itself, and one faction is actively working positively toward helping men while the other is working toward hindering men. Unfortunately, the side working toward hindering men is the more powerful at this point in time.
Which factions is helping men? I have yet to see anything related to feminism help men. We must have different definitions of what makes one a feminist.

(12-13-2014, 04:41 AM)jemini Wrote:  In a perfect world, I would think men's and women's issues alike ought to be handled by a non-gendered egalitarian movement, while gendered factions representing each side acted only to voice to the egalitarian movement what issues are important to them since a gendered movement is far more likely to come up with ideas than a neutral party. The gendered movements would gurantee issues get recognized and the neutral party would be a check against a gender bias.
A perfect world? You're asking for too much, Jemini. I'm all for a perfect world, or hey, even a better world. But I do not see one being made in the near future or even distant future. The best you can do is be the change you want to see in the world.
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#19
(12-13-2014, 02:53 PM)Indefatigable Wrote:  We must have different definitions of what makes one a feminist.

That in and of itself is one of the major problems with feminism. You have someone like Emma Watson go up to the UN and gives a speech about how feminism just wants "equality". Then you have group A saying they want to make it so if a woman reports rape the man is instantly jailed, group B wants to make it so if you look at a woman for longer than three seconds you will be charged with stare rape, and group C wants to castrate all males at birth. And if you ever speak up to them you'll get "Oh just look at Emma Watson up there, she's trembling in fear because of men like you who hate equality."
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#20
(12-13-2014, 02:53 PM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-13-2014, 04:41 AM)jemini Wrote:  I believe feminism is divided against itself, and one faction is actively working positively toward helping men while the other is working toward hindering men. Unfortunately, the side working toward hindering men is the more powerful at this point in time.
Which factions is helping men? I have yet to see anything related to feminism help men. We must have different definitions of what makes one a feminist.

It is called equity feminism. It holds feminists from the 60s like Dr. Cristina Hoff Sommers, writter of the books "The War on Boys," and "Who Stole Feminism?" and Dr. Janice Fiamengo who is a self described "former radical feminist," as their key speakers, and these women are harshly critical of the radicals. There are also lesser voices like Dr. Hellen Smith who wrote the book "why men don't want to get married."

Really, these individuals I just listed off are some of the most powerful voices for men's issues right now who make the news and are in the public eye most frequently. However, the power of the radicals is so great that this equity feminism has been marginalized and its key speakers I just mentioned are routinely subjected to harsh depictions within the radical feminist sphere. However, I would note they have, while still self identifying as feminists, been completely welcome into the men's movement as beloved allies. Dr. Sommers has even appeared with Paul Elam in his pod-casts several times.

(12-13-2014, 02:53 PM)Indefatigable Wrote:  
(12-13-2014, 04:41 AM)jemini Wrote:  In a perfect world, I would think men's and women's issues alike ought to be handled by a non-gendered egalitarian movement, while gendered factions representing each side acted only to voice to the egalitarian movement what issues are important to them since a gendered movement is far more likely to come up with ideas than a neutral party. The gendered movements would gurantee issues get recognized and the neutral party would be a check against a gender bias.
A perfect world? You're asking for too much, Jemini. I'm all for a perfect world, or hey, even a better world. But I do not see one being made in the near future or even distant future. The best you can do is be the change you want to see in the world.

You seem to have missed the point. I prefaced that comment by saying "in a perfect world" because I was acnowledging this was never going to happen. That is what is normally meant when someone uses that term.

As for my realistic goal, the MRM needs to just change the dialogue around gender issues and once all of the 26 bullet point men's issues talked about on AVFM (along with any that need to be added between now and when feminism gets taken down a few pegs should more institutional inequities be enacted upon men) then both movements need to just settle the hell down.
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